To those who take offence: Sorry if I'm emotional with regard to these issues, or upset about being compared to a child molester...
I understand that anger lessens me. Especially public displays of it. But I have contained that anger for years until it made me physically ill.
I apologise for the display of anger you saw here.
The people who have seen that anger as expressed here? My parents, unfortunately Smitten, and you. I suspect it will pop out at my next counselling session...
Not even my lawyer. My instructions there? An even handed and flat voiced statement "I have decided that your advice is well taken. I should proceed toward an even split."
I believe that spouses in a marriage breakdown should get half. I worked for years supporting the inclusion of those principles into our matrimonial property act. I also believe in joint custody, and worked to have those principles enshrined in law as well.
Oddly enough, we were successful in our endeavours and it is law in our jurisdiction.
I also believe in the value of raising children and have worked to alter our social welfare structure and childcare and scholastic structures to recognise the value of children and families.
Many of those beliefs are also reflected in public policy in our jurisdiction.
We were classified as the best place to live in the world by the United Nations. A huge part of that was the social environment we have created for families and children. We actually reduced child poverty levels here. The only jurisdiction in the western world to do so.
I believe that the work I did in raising the kids is a significant value to our family. That even I did not earn the same money as Mrs_C while I was at home (when they were little I earned about $12-20,000 a year just working from home. mrs_c earned about $40-50,000 at that time) I believe that I made a strong contribution in child rearing, and made pretty decent money out of my basement during nap times and after they went to sleep.
My income went up when they started attending part-time daycare and part-time at Grandparents. But I still did the shuttling, school, doctors and other stuff. I cooked, cleaned, shopped and other stuff too.
I was prepared, in my divorce situation, to take less than half for a number of reasons:
- i believed that it would make things smoother;
- i believed that it would make the settlement faster;
- i believed that it would cause less disruption to mrs_c and to the kids;
- i felt guilty about leaving, even though i felt justified;
- i felt guilty about earning less money than mrs_c during our marriage, even if it was a mutual decision;
- i have been angry for years when every time mrs_c would tell me she was leaving me, the thing she would always say was "The thing that sickens me most is that if I leave, you'll get half of my pension." I didn't want her fucking pension.
I have always proposed a reasonable structure and timing to settlement. I have always said that my goal was to minimise disruption, and to make sure that she was not put under undue financial stress because of the split.
I am still paying part of the bills on the house. I pay for her cell phone. She has the house and the use of all the stuff in it. I have offered to stay married for a longer period of time just to extend our medical coverage. Dental work (unless it is "disease" related) is not covered under medicare here. Mrs_C needs a bunch of major dental work. Each of our coverages will pay about half the bill.
When I was discussing property settlement with mrs_c, I proposed a decent and reasonable structure for settlement:
- She keeps her pension, I keep mine (hers is substantially larger).
- She keeps her personal (credit card) debt, I keep mine.
- I take the whole vehicle loan (even though $3000 of it was to to pay off her credit card) because it is on my vehicle
- She keeps the majority of the household effects (worth about $35,000 according to our insurance documents). I take my CDs and my personal stuff and some of the things that were provided to us by my parents that she doesn't use.
- The equity on the house gets split equally
When I originally proposed the above, and she refused to discuss it, I had offered to take only 40% of the net value of the house. I have since moved to the above position of 50% of house equity.
Mrs_C's response to the outline I gave was "I paid most of the bills while we were married, I should get most of the stuff. You can have your personal stuff."
When I pointed out that it was a mutual decision, and reminded her of the times she said I shouldn't get a higher paying job so that I could spend more time with the kids, and that she had said she liked me being home because then she could "Have [my] time whenever she wanted it, instead of a job interfering with it"
She retorted with something else that I don't remember. I asked "So what do you think would be fair? Should you get everything? The house, the kids, everything?"
She responded "YES!"
"You should get nothing. You should be left penniless and alone. I made you. You would be nothing without me, and now some other woman will reap the benefit!"
When we discussed bill splitting with regard to costs for the kids she was arguing about what constituted fair, then all of a sudden she said "You'll be paying me. I'm going for full custody and you'll be paying me support. I'm going to take so much of your money, you'll have to move into some shitty apartment that the kids won't want to visit you in, and I'll send you postcards from the Caribbean."
If I had received my share of the property settlement as outlined in either of the above scenarios I would have been able to pay off all my debt and buy a house - I would have the third bedroom. The reason I am still in an apartment is that it would make each month too tight for me. I prefer to have some maneuvering room.
[LATER EDIT]
When I said "fuck her" in the last posts, I meant (and wrote) "i am standing square on the line defined by the law. half is half."
The "fuck her" meant I am not going to bend over and be a patsy anymore
I meant: I am not giving her more than half and fuck her if I will be Mr Nice Guy and go further than half way.
Yep. That's me being nasty. Standing square on the line of fairness and not giving more than my share.
Just for the record, I still suspect the final settlement will look like my proposal above. I may ask for more of a split of the value of houshold effects... I really have little interest in taking her pension. Never did. That's why it pissed me off so bad every time she would say it to me.
I only ever wanted her to love me.
[END LATER EDIT]
It is mrs_c's stated intention to take the kids away from me, and to "Use every trick in the book to get [her] way".
Mrs_C comes from a family where she was molested by her Mother's brother and her cousin, and beaten and abused by her Mother.
(in my opinion her mother still abuses her metally and emotionally)
Her mother's favourite tool to beat her with was a belt buckle. One of Mrs_C's Aunt's took her to the hospital (small town - early '60s) once because the bruising was so bad. Mrs_C said it happened regularly (almost daily) - that was the only time there was medical intervention.
Mrs_C has left bruises on our son before. We agreed that we would not use corporal punishment in our household after she whacked him so hard with a belt that it left bruises on him. She told me that she had felt herslef losing control and that she wanted to never be in a situation where the anger could take over physically because whe didn't know if she would be able to stop herself if she had that kind of rage overtake her again.
For the record, I can recall being struck by my parents (my Dad) twice. I recall getting a few quick single whacks on the ass from my Mom with a wooden spoon or such when I was little.
Having worked on a couple of child abuse prevention/protection protocols in my time, and having dealth with it as part of public policy debate, I have some notion of what constitutes reasonable force and what constitutes violence. I also understand my role as a parent in protecting and intervening. Also, I understand the weight of evidence and documentation that will be needed for that intervention.
I have discussed "escape/flight" scenarios with my children and have provided them with telephone numbers to call and locations to go to. I carry my cell all the time - even when I am working out. I have a couple of designated people who live in the area who will do a pick-up in the event that Mrs_c flips her wig.
I have not fully thought through all the "escape" scenarios.
I will be sewing small bags with keys and quarters that I will be sewing to the kids coats for emergencies. There is a 24 hour store right by our place (across the school yard) that is only ever closed on Christmas day that can always provide at least physical shelter.
So there you go.
Some clarification.
13 comments:
Cad: I'd be happy to discuss this with you in an email....there are various similarities in your situation and my husband's (with regards to his ex-wife).
I just don't want to open it up for discussion with everyone else.
I will say: my husband gave his ex-wife EVERYTHING because he wanted out.
Don't make that mistake.
I was reading this whole post thinking that ok, you have pretty much decided what is going to happen. You have closed your mind to everything. You hate your wife. You want her to have nothing. Your kids disrespect her and thats ok with you. In fact, you encourage it. This all comes out in what you say. You make it sound like you have sacrificed so much by staying home. You seem to belittle that whole "stay at home" thing. You have given us half stories here. You say one thing then when something to the contrary is said, all of a sudden you give us a little more information. Ok...whatever.
The thing that bugs me about this whole post is this: I have discussed "escape/flight" scenarios with my children and have provided them with telephone numbers to call and locations to go to. I carry my cell all the time - even when I am working out. I have a couple of designated people who live in the area who will do a pick-up in the event that Mrs_c flips her wig.
I have not fully thought through all the "escape" scenarios.
I will be sewing small bags with keys and quarters that I will be sewing to the kids coats for emergencies. There is a 24 hour store right by our place (across the school yard) that is only ever closed on Christmas day that can always provide at least physical shelter.
What the hell are you doing? I understand your wanting them to be safe but OMG. I cannot begin to tell you how these paragraphs sickened me. You are basically telling your kids that they can't, and shouldn't, feel safe when they are with their mother and that if she even remotely ticks them off in any way, they can call you or someone. You will never know the full story when they have been with your wife. That is VERY , VERY sad. :o( Yeah, you sew those bags in their coats. That's a really good idea cad. Really good. You apparently want the fight to get nastier and nastier don't you?
chelle:
"You want her to have nothing"?
what post are you reading?
what did you miss about the half thing? what did you miss about my view of what the final settlement will look like? what did you miss about my proposal? what about my proposals sounds like "left with nothing"?
the part about staying is my rationale for why i place a value on my contribution to the marriage and how i can justify being entitled to half of marital assets. it is mrs_c who apparently places no value on my role as a stay at home Dad.
and as far as the not enough information thing... are you looking for a transcript of my life? do you provide a full transcript of your life on your blog? have you ever kept some elements of your world a little more obscure for whatever reason on your blog. has you ever posted something in a hurry or a moment of emotion and then added more on another day?
have you read the rest of this blog?
and yes - guess what? when someone - like you - seems to be taking something the wrong way, or in a way it is not intended, i provide more information. surprise!!! what a novel concept! clarifying a remark that someone has gained the wrong impression from. there's a whole new concept for the world to embrace. you read about it here first...
if my children express anxiousness about their physical safety at the points where their mother blows a stack, what should i do? and what basis would you have for saying they are either lying or playing me?
they have expressed anxiety. they have asked for my advice.
they don't want to leave their mom, but they have concerns about her wigging out and going over an edge.
and then you say "and that if she even remotely ticks them off in any way, they can call you or someone."
my children exercise good judgement. they are intelligent, sensitive, and aware people and i respect them. i ask you to do the same.
fourth paragraph should read:
"the part about staying home is my rationale"
I knew I shouldn't have commented in the first place. I went against my better judgement and did anyway. My bad. This has only turned into a who's right, who's wrong and I don't play those games. You put your stuff out here, well parts of it, then expect us to be able to make a reasonable comment based on the information provided. Only to look foolish because we were missing critical information. Whatever...it's cool.
Do I give every ounce of information on every aspect of my life on my blog? Hell no. But then, I don't write about such serious topics as this and I dont lay my personal life out for the world to read either. IF I have talked about something very personal, I have said "I am being vague and am not ready to give more info, this is for venting purposes." Besides....how would you know...do you even visit my blog?? I'm saying, if you are going to make assusations, provide the whole story. That's all.
By all means you need to make sure your kids are safe....anywhere. BUT when they express "anxiety" about their mother "blowing a stack", this is when you need to assure them that they are safe with their mother (AND discourage any kind of talk like that!!!!!!!!!). Not sew secret compartments into their clothes. Now, before you rip me another new @$$hole, I don't KNOW what is happening with them when they are at your wifes house...and neither do you!!! I'm not saying they are lying...but come on cad....they KNOW you are gonna jump through hoops at anything negative they say about their mother at this point. You think THAT is not them playing you against her? I was just trying to make the point that you best be careful in what you accuse because it will come back and bit you in the ass. But you dont see that possibility.
Your kids may exercise good judgement and be intelligent and aware people but they are also KIDS. It's not that I don't respect them (I don't know them) but I am a mother....so I do know a thing or two about kids.
Hey, I am not looking to get into a fight with you here. These are strictly my comments and opinions based on what I read. I am on the outside looking in. I see things differently. I am outspoken to a fault. I have not gone through a separation or divorce, but I have my fair share of shit, as we all do. I am not naiive about life or about people. If you would prefer that I don't comment here anymore, then just say so.
chelle:
yeah - its turned into a bit of back and forth, but i have no issue with answering for the things i post
i have not said that i don't want you to post your comments
as for why i delete blog_surfer, read here. his aim is not to participate, but to hurt. he's banned.
i leave anonymous posting open so that some people i know who read and don't have blogger IDs are free to post if they want.
now, back to the diversion at hand.
you said:
"You put your stuff out here, well parts of it, then expect us to be able to make a reasonable comment based on the information provided. Only to look foolish because we were missing critical information."
i'm still looking for an answer to your comment "You want her to have nothing". what critical information was missing from this post? i'm pairing up your comments and i'm wondering what is less than complete about the information i give about the settlement i am proposing to mrs_c?
and as for a "who's right, who's wrong" "game", no, that is not what this is. where is the game?
you said that i hate my wife and that i want her to have nothing.
i responded - and you still haven't told me where that gem could be found in my post
you said i was belittling stay at home parents
i responded - you still haven't demonstrated how i am putting down stay at home parents
----
i responded strongly to your comments because i believe some of them are based on unfounded premises
as you said in a previous comment "you can't put your shit out here and expect not to get some negativity or criticism."
"I only ever wanted her to love me."
and to me? that is the most honest, profound thing you have said about all of this.
THAT is what it boils down to.
WOW! You so shouldn't have to put up with this!! And how LUCKY are your kids that you are their parent looking out for them the way you do. Stand your ground. Don't apologize for being upset...you had every right to be. HANG IN THERE!!!
I think that 50/50 is fair. If the tables were turned and you were the "stay at home" mom, you'd be entitled to half. You guys were married for a long time and built a home/family together.
I have to admit, when I read the part about you sewing pockets into your kids clothes "just in case" they need a way out of possible? abuse I was confused. If you feel like there is a possiblity that your kids could be at the wrong end of a Mrs. C flipping her wig, then maybe they shouldn't be alone with her.
God forbid she have a psychotic break or something and seriously take out her hatred/vengence on you through the kids. (you probably think that is over the top, but people always say hind sight is twenty twenty) I guess I've seen too many Oprah's where kids have been killed during the stress of divorce.
I don't know Mrs. C and maybe she wouldn't take things that far. Maybe she is great with them 99% of the time. I know you'd do anything to keep your kids safe Cad. It just sucks that things had to come to this with your wife.
Caddy~ anger does NOT "lessen you"?! This is your blog. Your firing ground. Your escape.
Don't EVER apologize.
As for conflicting opinions on how you should handle YOUR life: we see a tid bit. You live it. Draw from what helps you. Ignore the rest?! The fact of the matter... no one can TRULY advise you via a blog, b/c we only see a snippet.
I can't believe that people feel comfortable JUDGING you from the miniscule view that we have?!
Fuck them, Caddy.
*sigh* This is getting to be a lot like homework. Now you want me to surf through your posts looking for answers to questions.
Do you love your wife? No
Do you like your wife? No
Do you hate your wife? "fuck her" Sure sounds like hate to me.
You want her to have nothing?
i will not stand for this.
she gets nothing. she gets nothing from me. i am at the end of my tolerance. i am at the end of it all.
i will give nothing.
her pension? the one i was going to leave her with all of?
fuck her.
the furniture and household effects that i was going to let her have most of?
fuck her.
I dunno about anyone else...but that sure looks like you want her to have nothing to me!!
I am not judging you, Cad. I am merely commenting on posts you lay out here. I'm sorry if I can't be all "ass kissy" and I am sorry if your friends think I am a bitch. You will do exactly what you want to do in the end.
Chelle
try reading the next two lines after the ones you quote:
"i am standing square on the line defined by the law.
half is half."
I said you WANT her to have nothing....I didn't say you were going to GIVE her her entitled half.
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