counseling: Went to counseling. It was better. Wasn't under attack. Talked through some stuff. Actually had useful discussion about the way we talk/communicate to/with each other.
I'd tell you what I found useful. But I don't actually remember... Must have been good stuff.
[condensed version of one part]
Mrs_C brought up the "Should we be having sex?" issue. She kept referring to it obliquely through the session. The counselor could tell there was a subtext, but Mrs_C wasn't going there (I will grant that she's still a little embarrassed to talk about sex openly). Finally I just explained what had happened. I explained that I thought I was being played. Mrs_C said she wasn't. The counselor said "There - an example of assumptions getting in the way of honest communications." I pointed out that Mrs_C had said "Are we ready to take our relationship to the next level?" after working me up - which I interpreted as using sex as bait. I said flat out "She's prancing around in these little outfits, more daring than she's ever worn before, dangling it in front of me and then says 'Should we really?' She's waving it in front of me and expecting me to come running like a dog with my tongue hanging out - and when I did she shuts me down - twice!". I explained that I got the message loud and clear and that was why I had been totally business with Mrs_C all week. She wants it that way, that's what she gets - I also said that was why I had refused to go on vacation for a week with her and the kids - if getting shut down twice had pissed me off, then what would a week of it do? Mrs_C said that wasn't what she meant. That she just didn't think separated coupled were supposed to have sex. The counselor said you should do whatever you want because there is no right and wrong or "supposed to do". I was like "Whatever".
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My Dad asked me on Thursday or so why I was still going to counseling. I told him "pure politics". The appointment is made, and my audience of two (kids) is not going to have their mother be able to say that I didn't give it a solid try. I want to have them experience a couple of weeks of peace and quiet as contrast to the histrionics of their mother before announcing "It won't work." He said - "Just understand what you goal is when you go into these sessions. Keep that in mind."
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Mrs_C said she wanted to come with me somewhere I was going on Saturday - Home Depot or the Co-op Home Centre or something - various errands. I couldn't think of a reason to say no. Got to just start realising I'm allowed to just say no for arbitrary reasons. I'm too polite.
Weakness: Yeah I did it with Mrs_C on Saturday... I'm not that bright. I'm just not always thinking about whether I'm being maneuvered or not. She helps me carry something up to the apartment - I'm thinking she's just being extra helpful for its own sake. Nope - I later realise that it was to maneuver me to let her up to the apartment. We put the stuff up there and I'm going to take her home. She wants a hug.
Yep.
Sproing.
It's been awhile. One thing leads to another. She says "There's no agenda - I'm just so horny." Yes. I know. I'm a sad human being.
Colour me idiot. Colour me male. Colour me thinking "She said there was no agenda - twice..." Colour me forgetting my son's words "She's a master manipulator."
How did Nowhere Girl put it...? "I have SO used that one before."
It was fine. She described it as "hot" and "tension relieving". We parted well with no issues or collar jerking.
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dinner: The next day I'm picking up the kids to begin the holiday around 5pm. I have to drop by earlier (4pm) to pick up some tools - I'm building this desk in the apartment. When I get there and Mrs_C tells me that daughter thinks we're (the kids and I) going out for supper. Mrs_C tells me daughter has been picking out her dress (this fringed red number I bought for her in Mexico). Mrs_C says daughter's been looking forward to dressing up and going out and planning it all afternoon.. I had no such idea, but if daughter wants to go out for supper - well ok. Mrs_C says "Can I come?" I'm a little choked, a little taken aback - it was supposed to be the launch of "our" vacation - we were supposed to be discussing the planning details of our vacation. And now Mrs_C wants to come - and she knew that's what we were doing that night because I told her. She pulls the quivery lip watery eyes thing. Daughter starts getting upset. I'm rattled. I'm focused on the question of getting this desk built, finishing the apartment set-up and getting ready for activities. I'm rattled. I say OK. She says "Well, if you think I'm coming on too strong." (editorial comment: she always pulls that when she always has what she wants and knows it) I say no - let's just go. I ask where we're going to go - because she hasn't been happy with any of the places we've gone in a long time. She says "Anyplace with you is OK by me."
sexy dresses: We go finish part of the desk and then I go back to pick up the ladies. I get there and daughter is done up and Mrs_C is wearing one of her new little summer dress numbers and is all dolled up (appropriate for a summer dress, but still all done up). I'm upset now - I say that the place I had planned wasn't the kind of place to be all dolled up in - it's more of a jeans place (a local budget pasta restaurant). She says it's OK and its only a $14.00 dress she got on sale. I'm "whatever".
I'm pretty cranky - but mostly silent - my tone betrays me. We get to the restaurant and everyone is unhappy and upset. I tell Mrs_C that I think she's playing me and that she has levered her way into the meal and then dresses up in her display outfit to dangle it in front of me.
She says that it is one of the few outfits she has that fits now and that the truth was she just didn't want to eat alone, so she just wangled her way into the meal - and that she just got into dress-up mode with daughter - that they both fed off each other.
Some of the upset dissipated and I said I would go to the bathroom and that when I got back we would all be happy and have a good meal. I washed my face and took some deep breaths and returned. It took a few minutes but we were laughing and happy and the tension was put aside. Poor kids.
While dropping Mrs_C at the house she says "Let's have a short walk". We talk and she says that she thought that there might be less tension between us since we "made love". I'm dumb, but not that dumb. I'm cluing in to my own stupidity.
The kids and I leave to go to my parents' place - my parents were leaving for awhile and we are watching their house (our vacation is day trips and one overnighter).
While driving there I apologise to my kids for getting upset and that I had leapt to some wrong conclusions, and that I was sorry about making things difficult at supper. My daughter informed me that she was just going to wear her regular clothes and that it was her mother that told her to dress up and wear the dress I had bought for daughter in Mexico. That Mrs_C said that they should dress up and look good and make me feel bad about leaving. They tell me that their Mom was playing me. That it was the set-up I thought it was.
The slow burn sets in.
How to Beat Sex Addiction
3 years ago
12 comments:
"Tricks are for kids and silly Wabbits."
Sex, once again, pulling you back. Damn...
I hope you get your own counselor, this one sounds like a ninkempoop.Your dad may have a point...WHY???
You need someone to be YOUR advocate. You need to define what you really want and stick to it. Stay strong, or Mrs. C will just keep playing you AND your children. So far, she is winning. Actually, the right thing to do for yourself and the kids is to stand tall here. They see the bait Mrs, C is dangling in front of you...
There are no rights or wrongs in these situations, true, but do you feel good about the sex? Do you feel good about getting used? If not it was wrong. If you do, then maybe you need to go back to Mrs. C.
I know it is difficult, but gee, don't give up, please. You have made your plan, stay with it.
You know, you could always buy her a toy.
Damn, you are such a great guy. You have so much to offer someone who could love you unconditionally and meet all your needs.
I just hate seeing you getting 'screwed.'
You were right when you said you are too polite. I can totally sympathize...I am the same way. If your instincts say no, then say no! It is obvious what she is doing and she is being manipulative. You may be better off cutting yourself from her except for when picking up the kids or if they have school or sporting events you may both be at to cut these episodes down. No counseling anymore, no accompanying you and the kids. You tried and it didn't work. Take comfort in that! I think the kids will understand that...they see what she is doing to you. They are smart.
Stay strong and hang in there!
hippi made me laugh out loud, with her suggestion that you buy mrs. c a toy instead of sleeping with her... CLASSIC!
and everything else she said? ditto.
a new counselor for you alone is an excellent idea. and avoiding the sex is also a good idea.
but i know that's easier said than done. long-term relationships don't just come apart that easily.
In no particular order:
1. Yes, I realize I'm not in your position, yet I am going to comment rather bluntly.
2. When you LEAVE a marriage and decide to dissolve it, marriage counseling is no longer necessary. Personal counseling IS.
3. This 'highly revered and qualified' idiot you two are seeing is a fucktard. I don't care who admires her degress and faculties.
4. Your daughter's admission of your wife's manipulations is scary. Notice your daughter went along with it. Notice she still didn't speak up when you discussed their 'overdressed' state before leaving for the restaurant. Your wife is working her masterly craft on your daughter in a blatantly scary manner.
5. You have officially left the door wide open for more antagonistic horrors with your wife.
6. Please allow the 'slow burn' to heat YOU up before allowing it to be aimed at your wife. It takes two to play hide the salami.
7. I still hope for only the best for your children and you.
I nominate oldhippichick to be your new counselor. Man, that woman is BAD ASS!
You just keep Dirty Harry in the boxers, Babe. I like the idea of getting her a toy. You can always hold onto the fantasy and bang out a few "knuckle puddles" when you get home. It will be better for yourself and for her in the long run.
First she manipulated you by NOT giving it up. Now she is waving the goods at you and pulling your puppet strings.
Worst of all, she is teaching your daughter that men are stupid and can basically be controlled by playing dress up. Safe enough when the man you are doing it to is Daddy. Not so safe when you opt to do that to someone like my EX (Tony, who you read about). Someone like that will take from her against her will for leading him on. She is teaching your daughter that men are not deserving of respect and that they are lesser forms of life than we girls are.
No good. Not acceptable.
Polite be damned, Cadbury. You have spent too many years in your marriage being "polite".
What's the opening line to MTV's The Real World?
"This is the story of seven strangers, picked to live together in a house...this is what happens when they stop being polite and start being REAL..."
Stop letting her infringe on the life you are trying to create for you and your children. Stop allowing her to ingratiate herself into your plans. She is scared to death to allow you and the kids to have a life that doesn't include her, lest you all realize how HAPPY you all will be.
CP.
Hippi: I felt fine at the time. Now, not so much.
And my Mom and Dad have been pressing me to resume seeing a counsellor. The one I was seeing was in Ireland - I have to see if he's back. I'd hate to have to bring someone else up to speed...
Southern Peach: I am certainly thinking that the cutting off/extremely limited contact scenario may be just about the best bet. and now would seem to be the right time.
terry: i had this ex-girlfriend. first woman i ever had a sexual relationship with. we'd have a fling every spring. or every now and again we'd get together. it didn't hurt anything.
in fact i was a convenient, uh, stop-over for many an ex-girlfriend over the years.
i apologise if that seems sleazy... but i really liked most of them, and enjoyed their company and the sex.
it's kind of dumb for me to put this with mrs_c in the same light in my mind even if only for a little while. she's a whole different ball of wax - as i rediscover every time i either mellow out, or drop my guard.
buddha_girl: yeah - willing dupe/particpant in "hide the salami". wishing it's going to be "one on the side with no spill-over" won't make it that way
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[cold]
The kids and I are doing the vacation thing right now. this is the point where we will all be getting decent sleep (we are happily sleeping in late), being mellow, doing what we want, and having little or no tension.
this is the point where I begin to publicly decide that counselling does not seem to be working.
from an audience standpoint - the whole dressing up thing actually works in "my favour" from the viewing audience. yeah - CP is going to burn my ass on the manipulation/purity thing (and probably you too BG [and maybe others]) - but this was enough rope to let mrs_c hang herself with the kids. it's hardball time. if mrs_c wants to play fucking political games, i can take the gloves off too. the kids - they were pretty unimpressed with mrs_c's maneuver.
i knew that something would occur over this first couple of months that would provide me with the moral highground - and i want it. i want the moral high ground in my kids mind's. i didn't particularly manipulate (in my own mind not at all) the situation or the people - i allowed it to play out - in a predictable manner - and mrs_c made a very bad step. now i have my opportunity. i intend to take it.
yeah - i can look after me. i can look after my kids too. heaven help the outsider that gets in my way - and mrs_c is becoming an outsider.
[/cold]
daughter... "she still didn't speak up when you discussed their 'overdressed' state before leaving for the restaurant.". she followed her mother's orders to put on the dress. she's 10. remember that BG. she's supposed to follow her mom's orders. if her mom tells her to put on a dress - she's supposed to put on the dress. she's not supposed to get into a debate with mrs_c because she'll never win it. i think it's a little over the top to expect a 10 year old to fight that battle! and it's also a little over the top to expect her to put herself into a vulnerable position by reporting on her mom in front of her mom if i'm not going to be there 24 hours a day to protect her - and i won't be in a shared custody situation.
daughter has permission to do what it takes to survive. she was a little afraid in the days after i left. i told her "...and while i prefer it to not be this way, there may be a time or times, when you may find that you have to agree with something your mom is saying - or that you may just say something to make your mom happier with you - that might be bad about me. i want you to not feel guilty about it, or feel bad about it - or not as bad. i forgive you in advance. understand in your own mind that if you say something for the sake of agreeing or even for brown-nosing - understand and remember when it's a lie and when it's not. OK?"
CP: "Worst of all, she is teaching your daughter that men are stupid and can basically be controlled by playing dress up."
sort of goes with the territory doesn't it...? i think that daughter was already on top of that one before mom got there. watch MTV much? not being smart-assed, just realistic.
"She is teaching your daughter that men are not deserving of respect and that they are lesser forms of life than we girls are."
now that is an interesting comment. i suspect that you would really like my mom (or you'd kill each other). mom said that about mother-in-law and the respect for men that she gives profiles for her daughters. my mom just about popped a blood vessel when my daughter reported (before i left) that mother-in-law had told mrs_c to stop doing any housework to "teach me a lesson". that it was because mrs_c was doing too much work that i was getting uppity - and that she needed to "deal with me".
my mom said "I really shouldn't be commenting on your business, but I will. I ask you: What sort of respect for men will that kind of attitude have engendered in her daughters? How does the saying go? 'The apple doesn't fall far from the tree'."
Yeah - your last paragraph CP - yeah. What you said.
Cad, I also have to say this, it has been bothering me so much. I KNOW women, I know what evil can lurk behind those tight dresses, thongs, and other enticing regalia, along with sweet lips and a batting of eyes...I know as I have seen this before and maybe it is not any of my business here, but do you think Mrs. C will still look so hot in those outfits 9 months from now? OK, maybe I am a doof, but I have seen it so many times...
I have to say that I feel a woman is much more attractive if she has a good soul. A nice body wrapped in an outfit is great, but, is it an ornament from hell? Why do guys fall for that poop?
AS you noted, 'Mrs C is a whole different ball of wax', you are so right! (WAKE UP CALL # ???)
I hope you re-read your words:
'yeah - i can look after me. i can look after my kids too. heaven help the outsider that gets in my way - and mrs_c is becoming an outsider.' AND 'i want the moral high ground in my kids mind's. now i have my opportunity. i intend to take it.'
I hope you have a wonderful vacation and I hope you and the kids have time to heal and re-set some moral groundwork.
I can not shut up:
OK, food for thought...in order for you to move 100% forward in a GOOD relationship, you have go to let Mrs C go 100%. Say if you were to date or see someone you liked, well, there would be nothing worse than the nightmare ex-wife. (I know, I have been there.) You have got to work though this and get over these fews humps (no pun intended) first, then date. I like the idea of you seeing your Irish counselor...but if he is not back, find a colleague of his. You need someone to talk through all this with.
AND...I know I would love your mom!
She sounds like a jewel!
Ok, I am done. :)
*Thanks Terry and CP!
hippi: good warning, but, i'm fixed - no 9 month problem.
Cad, I'm well-aware that she's 10. I'm also well-aware that it's natural for you to be in defensive mode right now.
I'm not pointing out her silence as an attack on her. She's living a battle with Mrs. C each and every day. In my short list of comments, I said in fewer words what CP said. I said it so you could once again see the lessons Mrs. C is teaching your daughter. It sent chills down my spine when I read the concrete manipulation. Your daughter is aware of it in her own way because she DID say something.
The fact that she knew enough to wait until your wife wasn't around is a very telling fact. At the tender age of 10 she realizes that there are safe and unsafe family members and situations. I do not expect her to fight any battle. I hope YOU do that for her.
THAT was what I was pointing out.
Remember, I work with kids whose parents mimic more than a handful of your wife's behaviors. I see the scars each and every year in a new group of kids. Sure, television, music, movies, and gossip rags CAN contribute to the creation of personalities, fighting styles, and various other behaviors.
However, after working with the population I do for many years, I can tell you with great certainty that parents and homelife are the true deciding factors.
Yes, my comments go beyond the mushy type. I speak my mind. I'm candid. I'm blunt. Period.
I also realize you're in the middle of a bigger shitstorm now than you were five days ago. Catching someone up on what's happened thusfar and working toward a solution so you're not a participant in furthering the crazed antics of your wife is worth the work. Counseling's never supposed to be 'easy.' It's work.
Best of luck in enjoying your vacation time with the kids. They'll obviously need some recuperative time with you before going back with your wife.
cad, there's nothing sleazy about sex with an ex, or friends with benefits, etc... but when you're in the process of ending a long marriage, it just complicates things. it's a whole different ball of wax.
and the way to get the moral high ground is to continue to be the bigger person. don't let her drag you into the muck.
after my ugly split, i had friends encouraging me to do all sorts of heinous things, including outing him at work, which would have hurt him deeply. but i simply refused. i knew it wouldn't make me feel any better, wouldn't change anything, and would only reflect poorly on me.
so you just continue to take care of yourself and the kids and look forward to what's next in your life.
and i'm with hippi (again) -- the outside packaging doesn't matter when someone's a manipulative shit.
Oh Caddy. As hard as it is... resist the temptation sweets.
Seriously.
Sex muddies everything. It does.
Perhaps a random one-nighter is in order...
There is not one thing I can say that these intelligent women haven't already said. Listen to them
Just wanted you to know that I'm still down here in Hell in full support of you and your kids.
Take care!
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